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Old Mar 24, 2011, 06:16 PM // 18:16   #21
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Originally Posted by Kaida the Heartless View Post
You are proposing we keep current damage mostly the same, decrease heals a bit, and add a defense web in the form of Aegis and Ward Against Melee to compensate.

The Ranger, who is already camping the Monks (and making their life hell), just needs to hit Aegis and Ward Against Melee. Ward Against Melee has a giant visual telling you when it's going to be cast again. Aegis has a unique cast time on Monks due to the duration of the cast. Welp, now the web is down (entirely and easily possible, I ranger'ed once upon a time, during Paraway even). Lowered Heals are no longer able to keep up with WTFDamage. Game becomes "interrupt Aegis/WAM and push" again. Still probably better than what it is today, but not ideal.
Are you bad? Have you ever run Aegis or Ward Against Melee? It's really easy to stop a ranger from rupting you. B-Surge him before you cast it, cancel cast it, ask for guardian, etc etc etc. There are plenty of skills that a team can bring to stop rangers from interrupting key spells. If you want a chance at shutting down a teams defensive capabilities, you need to bring a mesmer.

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Originally Posted by miriforst View Post
What needs to happen is a large net nerf to Melee (frontline) damage, and a large net nerf to healing. Protting needs to remain active, not passive like Aegis and WAM. Balanced Stance needs a nerf. Monks NEED to be able to be shut down (Energy Denial, Diversion/Shame, Knockdown), facilitating a need for a partially defensive mid-line.
You are incorrect about nerfing frontline damage. Damage in recent metagames is being entirely unmitigated. That's why it is so powerful. The standard Shock Axe bar has existed since prophecies. Somehow it used to not be as good. Why is that? Of course Dervishes need to be toned down and I believe nerfing one skill on their bar will do that. If Dervishes are kitable, their damage potential drops significantly.

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Originally Posted by miriforst View Post
We are proposing nearly the same thing, I just don't agree with the defense web. It was never good.
I'm not proposing a defense web either. Ward against melee can't stop a ranger interrupt. Only Aegis can. Aegis and Ward Against Melee have existed since early prophecies. The only reason defense webs were so powerful is because of Paragons... which are now nerfed and VoD... which is now dead.

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Originally Posted by miriforst View Post
Answers to your above post:
What's the point in burning a Monk's energy now when a 5 energy WoH is 1/2 a redbar and RC is nearly a full redbar? Five energy is a LOT stronger and more efficient now than it used to be. It's easier and more effective to just cleave another target's face in. At least this opens up more chances for the ranger to interrupt by having them cast more.
Direct energy denial is the most degenerate form of shutdown. A better, more fun, and more skillful shutdown scheme is interruption and disablement.

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Originally Posted by miriforst View Post
Spikes don't need to be built up anymore. They all consist of 5 energy skills on a stupidly short recharge.
Care to cite an example? What spikes have you been playing? A/P spike? Yeah... that should be gone... and it doesn't use 5 energy skills either.

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Originally Posted by miriforst View Post
What ever happened to calling for Guardian on the Mes for a window? Distortion? BSurge on the Ranger? Gale? So many other options. The team is supposed to work together. This generates "skill". Blanket "lolyoucanthitme" isn't helping anything.
Oh my goodness. This is the most naive comment I have read thus far. Why do you think mesmers needed guardians? Because they had to shut things down such as aegis, ward against melee, and B-surge and couldn't accomplish that with a ranger trying to prevent them from doing thier job. In the current meta, mesmers don't have this job. If you want to bring back defensive elementalists, you need to make them worthwhile in bringing. If you want to bring back shutdown mesmers, you have to make them worthwhile in bringing. That is the point. Talking to you is like talking to a wall. Seriously.

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Originally Posted by miriforst View Post
I don't think spamming 3 interrupts without energy worries was ever something that a Ranger was supposed to be able to do. Two should be the limit. The Ranger should need to bring something to help with spikes or otherwise provide offensive pressure (like Burning Arrow). They don't need to do that now because Melee damage is so high.
Wow... rangers aren't bringing three interrupts in the current meta. They are bringing two and... a spike assist called Point Black Shot... yeah... you aren't helpful at all.

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Originally Posted by miriforst View Post
Putting Aegis on the Monks isn't going to lessen the intensity of their job. It's going to become a heavy sigh every time it's interrupted because they know for 10-20 seconds somewhere, they are gonna have to fight against op damage with nerfed heals. The midline needs to be helping with snares, blind, kd, etc., not just blanket block trash.
So nerfing melee is going to incentivize anti-melee midline? Wow... gotta love that logic. Frontline damage, with exception to dervishes, is not overpowered. The lack of any and all frontline mitigation is what makes them powerful. Why is there a lack of any and all frontline mitigation? Because it currently isn't useful.

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Originally Posted by miriforst View Post
The midline needs to be ACTIVELY helping; this is both easier to balance and more fun to play. Otherwise you run into Aegis (blocking) up = can't do anything, Aegis (blocking) down = kill stuff, kind of game.
This isn't how the game was EVER played when aegis was good. When the other team did a good job shutting it down, monks would communicate with their midline and frontline that they needed help with the mesmer or ranger. Then the warriors shifted thier role and start training mesmers and elementalists would start harassing rangers. This is the point. My ward buff would incentivize defensive elementalists again. My Aegis buff would incentivize dom mesmers again. How can you be so naive?

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Originally Posted by miriforst View Post
I put my suggestion a bit further up in this post. Essentially, we need to jump back to the Prophesies GvG template that everyone adored so much. Slow the game down, keep the game active and not reactive (or passive). Not trying to whine, we are both suggesting the same thing, mine just lacks the defense webs.
Ok... The prophesies GvG template that everyone adored so much HAD AEGIS AND WARD AGAINST MELEE. This is ridiculous.

There is no such thing as a fully active defense meta that also has a bunch of shutdown necessity. Sorry. Active defense is almost impossible to shut down. That's what makes it active. Are you going to bring a dom mesmer on your team to shut down those guardians and shielding hands? No, you are going to bring a damage dealer and tell him to change targets when an active prot hits and stop being bad. That's the point!!! This is why I keep saying you are naive. You want people to stop acting with accords to their best interest which isn't going to happen.
Last edited by Brian the Gladiator; Mar 24, 2011 at 06:18 PM // 18:18.. Reason: Syntax Error
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Old Mar 24, 2011, 07:20 PM // 19:20   #22
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Since you appear to be getting upset, I'll just tell you outright: Blanket passive defense isn't coming back. The Dev's already stated it was terrible for the game. Your suggestions aren't going to happen because of this. So, I suggested using the Prophesies TEMPLATE to jump back to, without all the passive crap since they won't be adding it back in. I called it a template for a reason.

Why do you think Aegis and WAM are the only things that need to be shut down? Diverting BSurge was one of the most gamebreaking things you could've done in early GvG. You can still Power Leak other monk spells. Guardian is ENTIRELY disruptable. Energy Denial was always good and it helped with spikes. Enchantments always need to be shattered/removed. Having your Ranger Dshot Cripshot was also a huge advantage. Watching for Gale during spikes and interrupting it. All of this is active. Passive Defense is BAD. Period.
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Old Mar 24, 2011, 08:05 PM // 20:05   #23
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Let me add an intellectual hatchet to the thinking here.
Both Kaida and Brian agree that power creep in spiking and over emphasis on spamming heals(for monks) is killing GvG

Brian has suggested some, truly mild sounding, passive defense skills be implemented.

Just about every response is a big bash on passive defense because of how it was abused by monks in the past.

Why not a compromise and suggest it for players other than monks?

It sounds like a call for flexibility in teams. Not a bad idea, only it goes against the entire Anet development philosophy at this time.

In both PvE and PvP there is a continuing trend towards single profession usage. Other than monks bringing /A or /W for defense options, how many builds actually use secondary profession regularly?
Yes Shock Axe says hi, but not before you can say it's a freaking institution.


To wrap up long-windedness, it used to be that spiking was a gimmick that would win matches but lose championships. Now it's the entirety of the game.
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Old Mar 24, 2011, 11:33 PM // 23:33   #24
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Thie biggest issue is that what I am suggesting is first and foremost NOT a defense web. Anyone who replies trying to refute the defense webs of the past is not only ignorant but their argument is logically fallacious. Aegis doesn't not mesh with Ward Against Melee in the same way it did with multiple DA and Aegis prevented rangers from doing anything productive. Without DA, there is no issue. If we implement supplemental passive defense, the winning 8 man team will be the one that is most effective at shutting down the other teams defense as well as keeping your own defense up.
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Old Mar 25, 2011, 08:25 PM // 20:25   #25
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"Aegis has long been a concern in the balance of competitive play and has seen numerous adjustments over the years. It has continued to be a problem because of both the overpowered nature of Aegis's basic functionality and the ability of teams to work around attempts to balance this skill by bringing multiple copies. So we've taken a different approach this time and hit the reset button by changing Aegis's functionality."

http://www.guildwars.com/gameplay/de...l_balances.php

You can "refute" the devs. Aegis is not coming back. Passive Defense is bad because it's lazy, boring, and promotes stale, skill less gameplay. What is hard to understand about this?

Passive Defense is not supplemental, it's the forefront of mitigation. Rangers will go back to camping Aegis (WAM) and Diversion only (boring). Monk's get to play patty-cake for 10 seconds every time Aegis is successfully cast. The opposing frontline has to autoattack until it wears off because a spike isn't getting through, even with dual removals. It's bad. You are applying a bandaid to the overall issue of damage, not fixing it.

If this still isn't enough, how about:
Find a new way to balance the game that isn't around Aegis because its gone.
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Old Mar 26, 2011, 02:14 AM // 02:14   #26
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Originally Posted by Kaida the Heartless View Post
You can "refute" the devs. Aegis is not coming back. Passive Defense is bad because it's lazy, boring, and promotes stale, skill less gameplay. What is hard to understand about this?
It's hard to understand how somebody could possibly be short sighted enough to honestly believe this. Passive defense is thought to promote lazy, boring, and skilless gameplay because executing an aegis chain doesn't require skill. To the naive, short sighted individual, this would be the extent of their knowledge and thus they would form false conclusions. However, when one examines the type of play aegis promoted, they couldn't be more wrong.

Aegis didn't just impact monk bars and monk gameplay. It effected entire team composition as well as the gameplay of every other role on the battlefield. Warriors played differently, Rangers played differently, Mesmers played differently, etc. How can I explain this in a way that you can understand?

Aegis created an atmosphere for monks that was much less nerve wracking and twitchy than the current metagame. This is what you correctly pointed out above. But is this a bad thing? I believe this is missing from GvG and is the largest reason why it is so difficult for people new to GvG to have an enjoyable experience. Monks require too much skill to play. The gap between an experienced monk and an inexperienced one is simply too large for GvG to be sustainable. We are witnessing the effects of this now and I really don't think I need any more proof than that.

Removing Aegis also had unintended consequences. It completely shifted the responsibility of midline support characters from shutdown of the opposing defense, to buffing and contribution to the allied offense. This fact is supported by literally every metagame build since the aegis nerf. It is nearly indisputable.

Summary: Aegis nerf resulted in the monk role increasing in difficulty (requiring more skill) and the midline role decreasing in difficulty (requiring less skill). That is just the facts. The theory is how we can go about correcting this. Is there a way without reinstituting a healthy dose of passive defense? I am open to any and all suggestions.

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Originally Posted by Kaida the Heartless View Post
Passive Defense is not supplemental, it's the forefront of mitigation. Rangers will go back to camping Aegis (WAM) and Diversion only (boring).
Not only is this entirely unprecedented, but it is factually inaccurate and a sweeping generalization. Firstly, passive defense can be supplemental. It had been for years (Prophecies). Secondly, it is not the forefront of mitigation as it is completely absent in the current metagame (which sucks if you haven't noticed). Lasty, Rangers never simply camped aegis, WAM, and Diversion. They were always used in many different ways throughout the course of the match. They weren't referred to as the team toolbox for no reason. If anything, rangers are more stuck in a single role now, than ever before.

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Originally Posted by Kaida the Heartless View Post
Monk's get to play patty-cake for 10 seconds every time Aegis is successfully cast. The opposing frontline has to autoattack until it wears off because a spike isn't getting through, even with dual removals. It's bad. You are applying a bandaid to the overall issue of damage, not fixing it.
That's entirely incorrect. Mirror of Disenchantment is still an incredibly strong counter to aegis even when the skill was executed. There are also much better forms of single target enchantment removal now than in the past. Aegis feeds shatter enchantment on spikes. How is two enchantment removals not enough to remove a single enchantment on a single target? You are not making any sense.

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Originally Posted by Kaida the Heartless View Post
If this still isn't enough, how about:
Find a new way to balance the game that isn't around Aegis because its gone.
Feel free to give specific examples of ways to do this. Otherwise you are completely useless to me. Aegis is honestly the best and easiest way to emphasize and incentivize healthy gameplay in GvG. Like I've already said, I gave this a lot of thought and it is the best solution I have been able to come up with. If you have a better one, by all means.
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Old Mar 26, 2011, 03:23 AM // 03:23   #27
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Because two removals will break combinations of Spirit Bond, Protective Spirit, Guardian, Aegis, Reversal of Fortune (yes, entirely possible to remove this, it happens more often than you think, and it's annoying as hell), and Shield of Absorption (depending on if the monk is running it). It's not just Aegis.

What else is a Ranger going to hit? Aegis is the primary interrupt target. With it up, it cuts your efficiency in half. Diversion/WAM is(are) your next priority, or other key skill in the enemy line up. Then comes occasionally hitting something key (res's) when your team is getting spiked if your team needs it. Anything else, and you run the risk of missing an Aegis or running out of energy, and that's a no-no. This is also assuming you don't get juked into a wasted interrupt. The only other usefulness the Ranger had was splitting. They were locked into shutting down 2-3 of the same skills match after match with OCCASIONALLY helping with a split or random interrupt.

Furthermore, there is no mitigation at the moment because it's more efficient to run damage because it's so high. Defense ain't gonna win you anything when you don't have enough damage to spike against the Monk's super-heals. You HAVE to run damage right now. I've said this like 20 times.

Furthermore, you are limiting the Metagame. Every team will have to run Aegis, Mirror of Disenchantment, and massive interrupts (Ranger) or they will be unable to break the web, however tangle it might be. This stagnates the meta game.

Finally, I've said it fifty times: Nerf Melee damage. Nerf Healing. Problem solved. I'm not explaining why this fixes it again. You can go back and read what I've already written.
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Old Mar 26, 2011, 05:25 AM // 05:25   #28
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i think i know how to fix gvg problem but im not 100% sure because i may be overlooking something, even though i dont think so right now.

I'm writing shorthand because it would take about 30 pages of typing to go into the details because i have numbers in mind.

and kaida is right btw brian, with your update to aegis the meta changes but then it hits a wall again after everyone figures out the optimal build. The tactics for those builds might be arguably skillful, but builds will become stale; not to mention if disruption is a key aspect to winning then the whole 206/216 server becomes an issue again at the highest level of GvG.. which is the point where it gets fun. The closest time we had to some diversity was several months ago people ran
3 wars ranger nec
war war ele nec ranger
war war ele ele ranger
a/p spike
war war ele mes rt <- this was rare
etc other mixed types of eles necros rangers and mesmers...

( i think this was around the time of the mesmer buff and everyone was pissed about mindwrack)

The build diversity was pretty great but then the dervs got buffed and necros got buffed and everything became war war war ranger nec for the longest time and now its dervs.


Anyway to fix gvg you have to go beyond skill balances and look at the final product
Here we go

(update in this order)
1. Kill paragons and necros completely for gvg to avoid any unforseen variables, im sure no one is gonna be mad they cant play paragon or necro anymore in gvg for a lil while for now and make dervs and wars same power level. I dont care if paragons arent being used right now i dont want them being used at all yet.
2. Decrease damg output (wars less, ranger psn duration maybe less if it get to that point, mesmers less damg more importance on rupts/removals to do that damg, etc..) and monking healing output proportionally so neither overshadow the other. This means wars dont get debuffed too hard so monks healing is too strong and vice versa
3. Imagine what this looks like.. (same thing but 1 thing has changed.. npcs are still the same!)
4. The power level of damage must be somewhat near the npcs of the Guild halls level so that they become seriously significant.
---> this is where the 30 pages mostly fill up
5. change some goddamn npcs! seriously can you imagine if archers were like water eles instead with blurred etc or something instead of... ARCHERS?? A fire ele can kill basically everything and a hammer war can too, what if a hammer war couldnt beat the water ele npc but the fire ele could? or maybe a different npc like a mesmer npc so a fire ele cant kill it or w/e (i hope you get the picture im creating). NEW MAPS AND NPC TYPES/POSITONING ON THE NPCS should be what changes the meta, not skill updates.
6. slowly bring the necro and paragon back into gvg if possible, these classes are weird.

Final product should have some maps that flag pushing is still normal, split maps exist but the npcs will affect what kinds of splits you can really do and straight up 8v8 maps where you fall back into npcs and keep the tug of war feel of gvg.

I've considered the whole "but if maps help determine victory then gvg laddering isnt fair and might be buildwars because you don't know what map you will fight on." Yes it will, but AT GvG and mAT are what GvG updates should be about for pvp, not GvG ladder and i dont think people considered this.

Thats basically it i can clarify a little more on the shorthand but if you want a seriously interesting meta this is how you do it. Victory or death was removed August 7th 2008... We've had that long to perfect the art of flag pushing. Spikes usually become meta if its an OP spike otherwise its flag pushing.

So the problem with this is it will require new maps for gvg and new NPC builds as to opposed to the NPCs that have had the same builds for God knows how long... However imagine if a new npc build comes out and that one is in the mat. You dont have 3 years to learn how to abuse it (if its even possible) you got a few weeks and then its mAT time, and at that point GvG mat might look interesting...

Hexbuilds are not fun, if i had to pick 4 classes in gw if i could only have 4 i would prob do the warrior, ranger, mesmer, and monk so you need to make that the meta with all these skill updates, bring the powerlevel down proportionally for all those but let it still be meta and go from there.

There are a LOT more details i have to add but seeing how anet probably doesnt want help from an emu i dont want to actually type up that 30 pages of exact updates required (to the tee) because i feel like my idea will never be implemented. Anet or NCsoft or whoever if you really care, I'll MS Word document e-mail it to you otherwise its not worth my time.






The only few examples of a GvG ive seen that was close to this idea was

1) Tommy Equals Ftw's 1 monk + 1 bonder monk gvg build (Inadequatly Retired [GoLd] vs [vR] maybe? i forget) that only worked on Imperial Isle because of the map shape and the earth damage Acid Traps to power heal party spam. No one had enchant strips because everyone just followed the stupid meta.
2) perma sin hits the guild lord like 1 time (before entourage update; might've been [GoLd] again) and then they turtle bodyblock the chokes on map and wait for 28 while keeping their human shield alive.

P.S. I originally got this idea after seeing Starcraft 2 metabuilds change based on map design. GW maps/npcs are probably harder to create than SC2 maps/doodads.

And also Brian, the old 1/2 damg (In this case im going to consider blind "damg" type of defense) + 1/2 heal flaggers (the e/mo builds and such) i would consider exactly that. Your team has 2.5 healers; so if you wanna get technical that would've been a 5.5-2.5 gvg build, which the closest thing in existence today would be rt/e with shackles.
Last edited by emuking; Mar 26, 2011 at 06:34 AM // 06:34.. Reason: various typos, misleading information
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Old Mar 26, 2011, 11:12 PM // 23:12   #29
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What are you talking about Hexway / Spiritway says hi? That sure is helpful.
Hey, you're the one trumpeting your own experience. If you need a detailed explanation for my comments, don't act like a know-it-all in your OP, because anyone who actually has been involved in GvG would have known what I was talking about.

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Yes A-Net spent a few balance updates taking out ALL passive defense because they BELIEVED it was ruining GvG but THEY WERE WRONG!
Orly? Turtling for VoD was the meta for years.

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Ever since they took it out, GvG has withered away at an accelerated rate and is now in critical condition / death.
I'd like you to prove this causation.

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You say there are already many potentially good passive defense skills in the game but you failed to mention even one. This is not what I consider to be substantive criticism.
I said potentially, as in, there are more passive defense skills around now than there were when it was just Prophecies. Spirits, shouts, echoes, weapon spells, chants...basically the ritualist and paragon professions in their entirety amped up the number of passive defense skills from 3 (2 wards and Aegis) to way too many. And the more viable skills there are, the more effective a strategy it is to just pile them all on together and sit behind your turtle.

Again, this is something that anyone who actually knows about GvG strategy would know at this point.

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Remember when midline used to be the most difficult position in Guild Wars to play?
Nope. Monk started as the hardest position, and it still is. Like I said before, passive defense was pretty sparse in Prophecies; monking was all about quick reflexes, catching spikes, and protting the right targets. That's gone down a lot now, since we have such good passive defense skills (not to mention the excellent party healing options available to us now. My old Ether Prodigy / Heal Party runner looks downright silly compared to the rit runners we have available now).

The game is different now, and there is no going back, without deleting entire professions or fundamentally overhauling the game. That's not happening. The point is, the game is way, way more balanced now than it was during the times when spiritway, or hexway, or sineptitude, or turtling for VoD, or any other of the gimmicky unfun BS we've seen in the past 5 years. I'm not saying it's perfect, I'm just calling you out on your hyperbole, and saying that it's not going to get terribly much better. They can (and are) tone down individual builds that are too strong, like dervishes after the last update, but we're not seeing a rework of this magnitude. It won't revitalize the format, the path to GvG is just too difficult for most people, and it has been that way for years.
Last edited by Skyy High; Mar 26, 2011 at 11:19 PM // 23:19..
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Old Mar 27, 2011, 06:27 AM // 06:27   #30
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Are you bad? Have you ever run Aegis or Ward Against Melee? It's really easy to stop a ranger from rupting you. B-Surge him before you cast it, cancel cast it, ask for guardian, etc etc etc. There are plenty of skills that a team can bring to stop rangers from interrupting key spells. If you want a chance at shutting down a teams defensive capabilities, you need to bring a mesmer.



You are incorrect about nerfing frontline damage. Damage in recent metagames is being entirely unmitigated. That's why it is so powerful. The standard Shock Axe bar has existed since prophecies. Somehow it used to not be as good. Why is that? Of course Dervishes need to be toned down and I believe nerfing one skill on their bar will do that. If Dervishes are kitable, their damage potential drops significantly.



I'm not proposing a defense web either. Ward against melee can't stop a ranger interrupt. Only Aegis can. Aegis and Ward Against Melee have existed since early prophecies. The only reason defense webs were so powerful is because of Paragons... which are now nerfed and VoD... which is now dead.



Direct energy denial is the most degenerate form of shutdown. A better, more fun, and more skillful shutdown scheme is interruption and disablement.



Care to cite an example? What spikes have you been playing? A/P spike? Yeah... that should be gone... and it doesn't use 5 energy skills either.



Oh my goodness. This is the most naive comment I have read thus far. Why do you think mesmers needed guardians? Because they had to shut things down such as aegis, ward against melee, and B-surge and couldn't accomplish that with a ranger trying to prevent them from doing thier job. In the current meta, mesmers don't have this job. If you want to bring back defensive elementalists, you need to make them worthwhile in bringing. If you want to bring back shutdown mesmers, you have to make them worthwhile in bringing. That is the point. Talking to you is like talking to a wall. Seriously.



Wow... rangers aren't bringing three interrupts in the current meta. They are bringing two and... a spike assist called Point Black Shot... yeah... you aren't helpful at all.



So nerfing melee is going to incentivize anti-melee midline? Wow... gotta love that logic. Frontline damage, with exception to dervishes, is not overpowered. The lack of any and all frontline mitigation is what makes them powerful. Why is there a lack of any and all frontline mitigation? Because it currently isn't useful.


This isn't how the game was EVER played when aegis was good. When the other team did a good job shutting it down, monks would communicate with their midline and frontline that they needed help with the mesmer or ranger. Then the warriors shifted thier role and start training mesmers and elementalists would start harassing rangers. This is the point. My ward buff would incentivize defensive elementalists again. My Aegis buff would incentivize dom mesmers again. How can you be so naive?



Ok... The prophesies GvG template that everyone adored so much HAD AEGIS AND WARD AGAINST MELEE. This is ridiculous.

There is no such thing as a fully active defense meta that also has a bunch of shutdown necessity. Sorry. Active defense is almost impossible to shut down. That's what makes it active. Are you going to bring a dom mesmer on your team to shut down those guardians and shielding hands? No, you are going to bring a damage dealer and tell him to change targets when an active prot hits and stop being bad. That's the point!!! This is why I keep saying you are naive. You want people to stop acting with accords to their best interest which isn't going to happen.
What did i have with this to do (quotation name)?

Whatever, its an interesting idea to implement powerful passive defenses but keeping them easily countered to promote shutdown and by toning down direct heal power maybe weaker pressures like condi spread (as bonuses not as focuses ofc) or stronger ones like LC would see more play.

Would be interesting to see it happen, but i won't hold responsibility!

Not sure though about whether the examples you made are the right one or not but the concept would be fun to try in the "test" crews sandbox.
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Old Mar 27, 2011, 06:43 AM // 06:43   #31
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Wards are a better form of passive defense because they are placed at smaller static locations, strengthening position-oriented defense. More mobile teams can outmanuever and punish teams that rely too much on a wards. Maybe the wards themselves were a bit too powerful though.
Ward against melee: 33% block, 10e, 20s recharge.
Ward against foes: 33% slow, 10e, 20s recharge.
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Old Mar 28, 2011, 07:53 AM // 07:53   #32
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Originally Posted by Skyy High View Post
Hey, you're the one trumpeting your own experience. If you need a detailed explanation for my comments, don't act like a know-it-all in your OP, because anyone who actually has been involved in GvG would have known what I was talking about.
I didn't understand the syntax when I wrote that. I literally hadn't been on a forum in about a year. I didn't know what it meant for something to say hi. Get over yourself. How did I come off as a know-it-all in my OP? Read it again idiot because I can cite a multitude of quotes from my OP that suggest the opposite.

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Orly? Turtling for VoD was the meta for years.
This isn't true at all. Rawr was really the first team to do that and they only became prevalent post-nightfall while utilizing imba modigon and DA bull crap. If a team decides to turtle for vod now, they lose. You either gank their NPCs or you end up pushing their shit in and perma-boost.


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I'd like you to prove this causation.
Proved by process of elimination. Monking is too difficult for newer, less experienced players to succeed. The learning curve is too high at that position. Why is monking too difficult now than before all passive defense was nerfed out of existence? Take a guess. Am I opposed to decreasing damage and healing game-wide? Of course not... I agree that this, in theory, creates the absolute best game experience but that is not an easy thing to do. That is a completely new game. People say that A-net wont bring back Aegis... How likely are they to completely redo all of the damage and healing in the entire game? Think about that.


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I said potentially, as in, there are more passive defense skills around now than there were when it was just Prophecies. Spirits, shouts, echoes, weapon spells, chants...basically the ritualist and paragon professions in their entirety amped up the number of passive defense skills from 3 (2 wards and Aegis) to way too many. And the more viable skills there are, the more effective a strategy it is to just pile them all on together and sit behind your turtle.

Again, this is something that anyone who actually knows about GvG strategy would know at this point.
Sorry... I was unaware that "potentially good" was synonymous with "nerfed out of existence"... I don't know why I didn't catch that before you explained it. I must be a complete noob without any GvG experience... like you said. Now I have another question. What relevance does a bunch of "nerfed out of existence" skills have to our conversation? Just go away. you aren't helping anyone. You are just a troll.

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Originally Posted by Skyy High View Post
Nope. Monk started as the hardest position, and it still is. Like I said before, passive defense was pretty sparse in Prophecies; monking was all about quick reflexes, catching spikes, and protting the right targets. That's gone down a lot now, since we have such good passive defense skills (not to mention the excellent party healing options available to us now. My old Ether Prodigy / Heal Party runner looks downright silly compared to the rit runners we have available now).
Heal Party has been nerfed since the old E-prod runner. It heals a lot less. Passive defense was a lot less sparse in proph than it is now. It actually existed then. I don't know what you are talking about.

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The game is different now, and there is no going back, without deleting entire professions or fundamentally overhauling the game. That's not happening.
A fundamental overhauling of the game is exactly what you are calling for... If you don't believe it can happen, then why are you posting on here at all? Again, you are not helpful even in the slightest. Just go away.
Last edited by Brian the Gladiator; Mar 28, 2011 at 07:56 AM // 07:56..
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Old Mar 28, 2011, 08:02 AM // 08:02   #33
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Originally Posted by tealspikes View Post
Wards are a better form of passive defense because they are placed at smaller static locations, strengthening position-oriented defense. More mobile teams can outmanuever and punish teams that rely too much on a wards. Maybe the wards themselves were a bit too powerful though.
Ward against melee: 33% block, 10e, 20s recharge.
Ward against foes: 33% slow, 10e, 20s recharge.
Noted and taken into consideration. I'm changing both Aegis and Ward Against Melee in the OP. Thank you.
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Old Mar 28, 2011, 11:59 PM // 23:59   #34
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Its not an easy solution to completely overhaul the game damg/healing ratio because of the amount of time it takes, but its the correct thing to do in the long run.

As far as I see it anything else is a quick cheap fix, which is why i really am trying to refrain from suggesting skill updates without fixing the root problem because in my heart of hearts I know what I'm saying isn't the best solution and that just irks me.

On the plus side its nice to see them trying to make every profession have a role (Ex: Dervishs), but I don't think they see how the end result is going to look.
Last edited by emuking; Mar 29, 2011 at 12:03 AM // 00:03..
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Old Mar 29, 2011, 05:50 AM // 05:50   #35
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Its not an easy solution to completely overhaul the game damg/healing ratio because of the amount of time it takes, but its the correct thing to do in the long run.

As far as I see it anything else is a quick cheap fix, which is why i really am trying to refrain from suggesting skill updates without fixing the root problem because in my heart of hearts I know what I'm saying isn't the best solution and that just irks me.

On the plus side its nice to see them trying to make every profession have a role (Ex: Dervishs), but I don't think they see how the end result is going to look.
/agree

Honestly, I think everybody knows this to be true. I think we have to take what we can get. I would much appreciate a meta that is more fun than the current one. It wont be perfect but it is better than what we have and it is entirely tangible. I think that is the point.
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Old Mar 29, 2011, 06:03 AM // 06:03   #36
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What do you think about more conditional blocks? Block only if enchanted or block only if in stance, block only if moving, etc.
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Old Mar 29, 2011, 03:43 PM // 15:43   #37
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What do you think about more conditional blocks? Block only if enchanted or block only if in stance, block only if moving, etc.
I don't really have an opinion on that. I don't know what problem this suggestion is attempting to solve. Assuming that what I have in the OP was to be implemented, after having seen the meta that came about due to the implementation of the supplemental passive defense, if that passive defense was deemed too strong, making them conditional based on movement might be a good idea. I don't believe making blocks conditional based on stances or enchantments is a good idea because that would encourage people to build their teams around the passive defense, rather than building the passive defense around the team i.e. we want this B-Surge elementalist to counter spikes and to assist on spikes. Why don't we put a ward on him as well to take pressure off our monks? By making the passive defense conditional to stances or enchantments, I am afraid people will bring throw away stances or enchantments just for the sake of being in a stance or an enchantment.
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